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Calder
Apr 18, 2006 10:16:36 GMT -5
Post by habsgm on Apr 18, 2006 10:16:36 GMT -5
I think you'd have to be nuts to bet against Ovechkin getting the hardware, but what about Sid the Kid. I for one am a supporter. Cracking off 100 points as an 18 year old is big. Sometimes the talking heads forget that Crosby is eighteen and last year he played junior hockey, whereas Ovechkin has been playing with Dynamow for the past 4 seasons. His baptism by fire was in 01-02 (at sixteen??) and has been playing with men for quite some time now. This is Crosby's first season and argueably the jump from the Q to the show is much larger than from the Russian Elite League to the NHL.
Couple this to the level of expectation for Crosby vs Ovechkin. There was a lot of scrutiny this season on both players, but much more pressure on the Penguins to have a good season than Washington. In Washington there was only one dynamic at play - the Ovy Show whereas the steel city had more than a fair share of disappointments and distractions: coaching, Lemieux, Palffy, team underachievement. There's no doubt that Crosby (being the competitor he is and must be) had to deal with of this off ice crap. The Russian didn't have as much of this nonsense and was allowed to play his game night in - night out. I think in surrounding Sidney with 'stars' (Recchi, Leclair, Palffy, Lemieux) the organization might not have helped crosby as much as the original intent.
So, personally I'd like to see happen what Gretzky suggested - give the Calder to both Crosby and Ovechkin.
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Calder
Apr 18, 2006 12:25:38 GMT -5
Post by edmontongm on Apr 18, 2006 12:25:38 GMT -5
I think Bob McKenzie had it best with his team of rookies this year (instead of the typical All Rookie Line)...at no point in NHL history has there been this many first year players deserving. The serious considerations being: Alex Ovechkin (obvious) Sidney Crosby (obvious) Dion Phaneuf (20 goals - which is 2nd in the league only to Mathieu Schneider, 49 points as a defenceman...he also played junior hockey last year) Henrik Lundqvist (4th in GAA, 3rd in save percentage in the league - and the top 5 in GAA and top 4 in save percentage are far and away better than the rest of the league - that's quite an accomplishment) Andrej Meszaros (was the runaway leader in plus/minus until this current spell, started the season averaging less than 15 min per game, still is a +33 and has played over 30 minutes a game several times this year) Any one of those guys easily deserves it this year, in this class - but because of the hype, it'll come down to Ovechkin and Crosby with one of the other three, likely Phaneuf, a distant 3rd. (Although I think Lundqvist has had just as much struggle as Ovechkin and Crosby has in New York). The Rookies who'd have a chance if it was any other season: Brad Boyes (was a 4th liner to start the year - a distant 3rd in rookie scoring, 2nd in Bruins scoring with 69 points) Marek Svatos (32 goals, 50 points in 61 games before getting injured) Keith Ballard, Zbynek Michalek, Jussi Jokinen, Thomas Vanek, Ryan Whitney, Petr Prucha, etc, etc, etc... So while its unfair to all these great players (it may not have happened without the salary cap - but all these guys would have played at some point over the past couple years), I say the award goes to Lundqvist (his team made the playoffs
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Calder
Apr 18, 2006 15:58:29 GMT -5
Post by Eric - Washington GM on Apr 18, 2006 15:58:29 GMT -5
Ron, you've been a posting ALL-STAR Lately I like what you've been saying. You make a good case for Crosby, and I think that It's a close tie. But if I give the advantage to any player it would be AO. However I'd give the Award to Lundqvist. or a 3-way tie of Crosby, AO, Lundqvist. Clint, don't forget Jordan's favorite player Colby Armstrong. Since his call up he's averaged .8 points a game. It helps playing on a line with Crosby, but he is one of the best young players in the league. A really smart player.
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Calder
Apr 18, 2006 21:46:16 GMT -5
Post by FincanSJGM on Apr 18, 2006 21:46:16 GMT -5
The award goes to the best rookie right? That would be AO. Now if the award went to the best rookie in relations to age and experience, well you would have a case. As of now it is AO and IMO he is the easy choice...though if I were looking to build a franchise it would be a VERY close and tough decision.
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Calder
Apr 19, 2006 7:05:27 GMT -5
Post by habsgm on Apr 19, 2006 7:05:27 GMT -5
The award goes to the best rookie right? That would be AO. Now if the award went to the best rookie in relations to age and experience, well you would have a case. As of now it is AO and IMO he is the easy choice...though if I were looking to build a franchise it would be a VERY close and tough decision. I definitely see what your saying Cal, but to offer a contrary viewpoint: Ovechkin is one of six rookies in league history to pot over 50 markers - no great shake there, whereas Crosby is the youngest player ever in NHL history to record 100 points. Isn't he only the second 18 yr old to pull it off? (I think second to Hawerchuk). Judging by that, Crosby's is the greater accomplishment.
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Calder
Apr 19, 2006 12:40:35 GMT -5
Post by Bryce - Minny on Apr 19, 2006 12:40:35 GMT -5
but who was better this season? ?? It's not a debate, Ovechkin was, Crosby had some talent to play with and pad his stats, where Ovechkin had garbage...... Everything equal Ovechkin wins, age doesnt matter neither does hype. Who performed the best? AO
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Calder
Apr 19, 2006 13:32:23 GMT -5
Post by habsgm on Apr 19, 2006 13:32:23 GMT -5
Ovechkin despite all his heraldry only finished a handful of points in front of Crosby. And last going off (down the stretch) I think he had Colby Armstrong and Andy Gilbert against the Leafs last night for a bunch of the game. Ovechkin had Zubrus and Chris Clark. Now Clark is no peach but Zubrus is and hasn't he been alongside Ovechkin all season. Where Crosby has had multiple linemates (ie no stability). I think despite all the rah rah rah, these two guys are a lot closer statistically once you factor in the other BS (ie franchaise upheaval, press pressure, penguins dropping like flies off the roster, coaching changes). Ovechkin might have scored some pretty goals, but Sidney made some pretty passes. So as to who performed the best, I do not think it's a clear cut thing for either player. Most of the second half of the season - we've heard a lot of Alexander hype, but Crosby has had a fine finish on a club in turmoil.
By the way, does Ovechkin have a letter?
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Calder
Apr 19, 2006 16:43:47 GMT -5
Post by habsgm on Apr 19, 2006 16:43:47 GMT -5
I think here's my problem with the Calder race this season. This excerpt is from forecaster.ca (http://forecaster.ca/thescore/hockey/extras.cgi?awards-preview-2005-06). It is their awards predictions:
Hart Memorial Trophy
Our finalists: Jaromir Jagr, RW, Rangers; Joe Thornton, C, Sharks; Miikka Kiprusoff, Flames Long shot: Alexander Ovechkin, LW, Capitals
Winner: Jagr - The NHL's return to a more offensive league could culminate in three forwards leading the MVP race (if Ovechkin, who's not "really" a long shot, joins the fray instead of Kiprusoff, according to official voters). Jagr wins out for his absolutely awesome return to form.
Calder Memorial Trophy
Our finalists: Alexander Ovechkin, LW, Capitals; Sidney Crosby, C, Penguins; Henrik Lundqvist, G, Rangers Long shot: Dion Phaneuf, D, Flames
Winner: Ovechkin - The best rookie crop since 1992-93 is a close race, but Ovechkin is already an MVP candidate and deserves the award over several other worthy opponents.
Soooooo here's my problem. "Ovechkin is already a MVP candidate." I mean wtf, how does a guy who leads his club to a bottom five performance in the league, a 12 game under .500 record get even mentioned. There are sooooo many other candidates. Yet for some reason the fact that Washington doesn't finish last and Ovechkin finds himself alongside Jagr, Thorton and Kip for Hart speculation. It's bizarre, he might be surrounded by nobodies, but the club sucked in the standings and don't forget Kolzig is one of the better goalies in the NHL. Imagine if the Caps had Thibault, Belfour, or [insert any Oiler goalie name here] between the pipes this season. They would have finished last. Alexander Ovechkin is not overrated, he is over hyped. Ever since about two weeks before the season started, he's been championed (Crosby's been the same until the Olympic oversight -- and boy they screwed up there). So since the Olympics, Ovechkin has been the super rookie, yet he's played no better than Crosby, won no more games for his club than Crosby and really put up no greater production numbers than Crosby. I don't understand it - it's like the media has chosen it's pretty girlfriend and wants to say how pretty she is and how prettier she's getting every chance it gets. "We're so right about him being the best rookie in the league that he should be considered for the Hart." Now, that's a load of crap if there ever was such a statement. (Don't anyone dare start on how the Hart is for the most valuable player to his club and not the club's performance.) Leading a club to 22 points shy of a playoff spot is not Hart worthy, not when there are Kariyas, Zetterbergs, Gagnes, Brodeurs, Koivus and many other impact guys who saw their team make the playoffs.
Again, I am not saying Crosby is better, but I am saying he is just as good. (And that shootout backhand roofer over Theo's shoulder that popped the water bottle up five feet is as pretty a goal as you'll see in the NHL. It's as good a goal as Ovechkin ever scored. Scoring on your back in a Hasek like move is not a pretty goal or the mark of a great scorer.)
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Calder
Apr 22, 2006 12:05:13 GMT -5
Post by Bryce - Minny on Apr 22, 2006 12:05:13 GMT -5
IF you swapped Ovechkin and Crosby's team....Who ends up with more points and the better season? IMO it's still Ovechkin, He hasn't played with Zubrus all season, who is the only NHL calibre forward on the Crapitals (OK maybe Halpern and a few others)....While Crosby has played parts of teh season with guys like Palffy, Lemieux, Gonchar, etc..... Don't get me wrong all those guys disappointed, but they are still better than the Brian Willsie's of the world. I think the NHL is in amazing hands with these two kids for the future, this will probably be the Gretzky-Lemieux debate of the next couple generations (although there is no debate, Gretzky was by far the superior player)
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Calder
Apr 22, 2006 15:55:55 GMT -5
Post by Eric - Washington GM on Apr 22, 2006 15:55:55 GMT -5
...this will probably be the Gretzky-Lemieux debate of the next couple generations (although there is no debate, Gretzky was by far the superior player) Didn't momma ever tell you not to lie? Gretzky was 3rd rate compared to Lemieux.
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Calder
Apr 23, 2006 22:24:05 GMT -5
Post by FincanSJGM on Apr 23, 2006 22:24:05 GMT -5
hey Eric, pass the bong, that must be some good shit.
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Calder
Apr 24, 2006 16:56:51 GMT -5
Post by Nashville Predators on Apr 24, 2006 16:56:51 GMT -5
I've had this debate before. I'd argue that if Lemiuex was healthy he'd have been as good or better than Gretzky. Look at their points per game. There is 0.01 difference.
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Calder
Apr 24, 2006 19:56:55 GMT -5
Post by ianintheam on Apr 24, 2006 19:56:55 GMT -5
That difference was a lot higher before Lemieux came back and played on some horrible teams the past 3 seasons.
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Calder
Apr 24, 2006 22:03:27 GMT -5
Post by FincanSJGM on Apr 24, 2006 22:03:27 GMT -5
wow, Lemieux PPG ration declined as he was older. Man, good thing for Gretzky that the same thing did not happen to him.
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Calder
Apr 25, 2006 10:58:43 GMT -5
Post by habsgm on Apr 25, 2006 10:58:43 GMT -5
That difference was a lot higher before Lemieux came back and played on some horrible teams the past 3 seasons. I think you said that wrong - the difference was Gretz played on some horrible teams but he made them better
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Calder
Apr 25, 2006 13:21:40 GMT -5
Post by Nashville Predators on Apr 25, 2006 13:21:40 GMT -5
Lemiuex missed a full season to Non Hodgkins Lymphoma as well as retired for 3 seasons due to bad back problems... played n far less games than Gretzky and still managed to stay so close... If both were relateively healthy... and played the same amount of seasons.. I can see Lemiux rivally Gretz easily.
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